Fri 13 Apr 2007
This series of posts has been years in the making and will take years to complete. While I intend to take issue with the Eastern Church, I’m saying up front, like what happened to the recently departed scholar Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan as he wrote his multi volume treatise on the early church, I may very well end up there before the series is finished. I don’t claim to have all of the answers nor do I claim my issues are insurmountable - incredulity is not a virtue.
A cautionary note: I am no scholar and since this is not a scholarly outlet I have every intention of straying into the realm of personal impression and perhaps without qualification. I have no doubt that what follows will be vague to many as it assumes a minimal background and at the same time rather basic and imprecise to others.
The occasion for this post is a conversation I was participating in on Perry Robinson’s blog energeticprocession, combined with the fact that I’ve been asked to stop “hi-jacking” threads by posting off topic comments - and I must admit to my detriment that’s what my comments became.
The Current Issue
Since the 1950’s various scholars of ancient, second millennium BC, near-eastern culture, have recognized a common form shared among what’s called the “Suzerain-Vassal Treaty” literature of the period and the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. These discoveries have shed light on various passages of the old testament and broadened our understanding about how Israel viewed itself in relation to God. These “treaties” or “covenants” were not “law” in the sense we normally think about “law.” They were solemn and binding agreements that established the conditions for a relationship between a greater king (suzerain) and the people of a lesser king (vassal). The terminology is borrowed from a feudal system but this understanding doesn’t fully capture the relationship.
As Meredith Kline points out, when we hear the phrase, “the law” in reference to Israel, we more rightly understand it as “covenant” which is much broader than a simple legal statute. “Not law, covenant” he writes in his book Treaty of the Great King (partially reproduced in The Structure of Biblical Authority).
Keeping in mind this background, the pertinent portion of the previously mentioned conversation follows:
I had said:
That has no bearing on whether or not [the discovery of the Suzerain-vassal treaties of the 2nd millennium BC] shed more light on the covenant relationship between God and Israel by way of providing more meaning and context to “the law” so often referred to by Paul. My rhetorical point should have been clear; the Reformers view of covenant is strengthened by this *later* understanding, while the Eastern is weakened.
Mr Robinson responded:
And I just have to laugh at the suggestion that suh evidence weakens the Orthodox notion of Covenant. What great works on ORthodox notion of Covenant have you read? Please explicate the Orthodox view of Covenant for me and then contrast it with the Reformed view. I haven’t even mentioned on this blog what the Orthodox view of Covenant is and so I think you are confusing it with theosis. Seriously, it is obvious to me that you are blowing smoke.
To cast one of the major distinctions between the Protestant West and Eastern Orthodoxy in the simplest of terms (which surely will not do justice to the issues), Orthodox Catholic interpretation of all doctrines are almost exclusively in terms of ontological categories, while the West (including Protestants), though not exclusively, will view many doctrines within a “legal” or “judicial” framework.
In subsequent posts on this topic I will highlight the end results of this distinction but by way of explanation of my comments, this was primarily what I had in mind. Again, simplistically, the emphasis in the West is “being right with God” while the emphasis in the East is “union with God.” In the West the pivotal event in history would be the Crucifixion (and for a covenantally minded Reformed Christian, this event would include the Resurrection). In the East it’s the Incarnation; God’s nature united with human nature in the Person of Jesus Christ.
Hence the context of another sarcastic jab of mine in the same thread, of which the above quote is simply a restatement:
After all, any honest interpretation of these legal documents would lead one inexorably to the conclusion that they are treatises on the mystical union between the suzerain and the people of the vassal.
As a side: there are other ancient, near-eastern, 2nd millennium BC, documents that better approximate the modern understanding of “judicial” and “legal.” As Kline also points out, the most famous of these is “The Code of Hammurabi.” But this code doesn’t match the form of the literature of the Pentateuch nearly as well as the “covenant” literature of the period.
So the main question is, and the point of my quotes was, does this ancient literary form create more support for the Reformed notion of covenant or an ontological understanding of union? To me the answer is obvious simply in the broad notion of “covenant” as the definition of “union” itself, contrary to an ontological interpretation.
I will expound in future posts.
April 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Apart from the merits of your post, isn’t a little odd to post about why you are not something when whether you are or not isn’t a topic of discussion.
I could write a post entitled “Why I’m not Buddhist”, but it wouldn’t make sense unless the reason why I’m not Buddhist is at issue. For instance, if I am trying to convert a Buddhist, when someone asks me why I am not, if I live in a Buddhist country, if I converted from Buddhism to something else, or if I am a public figure whose religious experience is pertinent (e.g. Mitt Romney re Mormonism), etc.
It seems that the real purpose of your post is to show why your particular views are right vis a vis Orthodox claims. Either way this belies the ‘temptation’ to Orthodoxy, which should really be a part of the article , too, as the antithesis of the above: Why I Had Thought I Might Want to Be Orthodox. I started my own journey to Orthodoxy by starting to research an article for my little Lutheran sect (WELS) loosely titled “Why Orthodoxy is Wrong”. I was received into the Orthodox Church in 2001.
Blessed, prayerful inquiry to you.
April 13th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Christopher. You have a good point.
I guess some of the context missing from my post would include the fact that several friends of mine have converted to Orthodoxy over the years, so the title should be viewed within that polemical environment.
I have respect for my friend’s decisions and know they were not made lightly.
Thanks
Jim
April 14th, 2007 at 6:56 am
It seems from your first post, as well as Perry’s blog, you have a presupposition that something, ANYTHING at all, rests on some ancient notion of covenant. I’m not trying to pigeon-hole you like I usually do, this is just an observation from 20 years as a Christian. Protestants look at the scriptures sequentially and in a sort of linear fashion, as if the New rests on the Old.
We simply don’t care……. the start of our scriptures really isn’t Genesis 1:1, but St. John 1:1. The validity of the Old rests on the Incarnation. Christ is primary, we then read Him back into the Old. I know you do it too, but it is a question of degrees.
We don’t look seriously at “covenant” issues because they seem trivial. God became a Man, and now we have union with Him via sacraments…. a mystical…. dare I say *physical* relationship. Your primary way of seeking God is through scripture and prayer….. good things, and I would venture to say you indeed find Him. IMHO, it’s incomplete because it doesn’t include your body which is made in the image of God also.
Christos anesti
April 14th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Don,
I don’t disagree with you in the least. I think you’ve stated our differences better than I did in my post.
I might take minor issue with at least one thing; “Word and Sacrament” is the Reformed mantra so I would add communion (and baptism) to your short list of scripture and prayer (I see an ad hominem forming in your mind
- please call me to deliver it - thanks) - though I understand we view them differently. Actually, I was thinking about writing about that next.
I am going to take Christopher’s advice and change to title in the next one also.
Jim
April 14th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
““Word and Sacrament” is the Reformed mantra so I would add communion (and baptism)”
The sacramentalists amongst you struggle in the minority. If baptism=regeneration, the Reformed have difficulty with the idea of losable regeneration, whereas the Lutherans don’t.
Eucharist is a debate all in itself. Many Reformed found themselves Lutheran over the subject. I don’t think it’s your issue anyway, so I won’t risk carpal tunneling over it.
“The law” is your issue. That’s cool. I’ll do some digging and see whether our side says anything on the subject. My intuition thinks Chrysostom or John of Damascus would be where to look.
April 16th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Don,
“sacramentalists” are a minority but it’s a growing minority. Do a google search on “federal vision.” Anyway, “losable regeneration” isn’t an issue when baptism and communion are viewed covenantally - just like the “old covenant” “sacraments” of circumcision and temple sacrifice.
As you say “The law” is an issue, yes. If you can, try to keep in mind that I understand the term as synonymous with “covenant.”
Thanks Don, let me know if you think there are any good things to read on the topic.
Jim
April 17th, 2007 at 1:10 am
“Anyway, “losable regeneration” isn’t an issue when baptism and communion are viewed covenantally - just like the “old covenant” “sacraments” of circumcision and temple sacrifice.”
Long standing issue for the Reformed.
Person X is baptized and communes in the covenant. Person X is therefore considered to be regenerate in their person, sustained by communion. Person X returns to paganism. Person X goes to the Judgement and is consigned to perdition, showing that God has reprobated them from eternity past.
Was person X ever regenerate? In the above case this is impossible for the Reformed, since God the Holy Spirit knows that person is a reprobate. The baptismal regeneration was only presumptive in this case, as regeneration never came to this individual. As well, they never really recieved the Eucharist, but only damnation.
My real objection is that nobody really knows if they actually got anything from any sacraments. They hope they did, but since they can’t possibly know whether God has eternally decreed them reprobate or righteous nobody knows if they get anything from the sacraments.
Covenants don’t get regenerated; people do. If the sacrament doesn’t touch and change my person, what good is it?
I want to be clearer on where you itch when it comes to law. Surely you recognize that there is something different about Romans… written to Latins or at least those existing in a Latin society; hence the emphasis on law, covenant, etc. Now look at books like John, 1John, 2Peter…. much more ontologically oriented, written in Greek culture or at least a hellenized jewish one. I see cultural differences in the New Testament; like the seeds of schism were sown from the beginning.
BTW, did you ever read that series from Pelikan?
April 17th, 2007 at 8:25 am
I understand your point. I need to review Calvin on the issue because I don’t think he was as hung up on it as much as you say (though modern Reformed may be). You see, (and this gets to the point of my original post on Perry’s blog), “regeneration” as understood by modern evangelicals (that is, a guarantee that one will be accounted among the sheep rather than the goats - as the parable goes) is not what is provided by the sacraments (according to the Reformed), grace is (God Himself) - that doesn’t necessarily entail “regeneration” in the sense specified because it may result in a greater condemnation.
An “unregenerate” person (one who is “faithless” to the covenant; one who doesn’t respond in “faith” and “believe” God) who enters a covenant relationship through the sacraments “eats and drinks destruction” unto himself; they are under a “greater condemnation.” This (I think) is the meaning in Hebrews 6:
You said:
Then what is the meaning of saying that “the law” (i.e. the old covenant) was crucified with Christ, and therefore resurrected with Him?
This is a good point. I’ll need to read through and think about it. One interesting omission here is Hebrews, which is written explicitly in covenantal terms.
It’s still in my Amazon queue.
April 17th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
“An “unregenerate” person (one who is “faithless” to the covenant; one who doesn’t respond in “faith” and “believe” God) who enters a covenant relationship through the sacraments “eats and drinks destruction” unto himself; they are under a “greater condemnation.” This (I think) is the meaning in Hebrews 6:”
Don’t you think we only apprehend this by degrees? All of us go through cycles: times when we pray more and are more devout; times when we feel like scum and do less; times when we are more generous; times when we stalk around angrily.
“You said:
Covenants don’t get regenerated; people do.
Then what is the meaning of saying that “the law” (i.e. the old covenant) was crucified with Christ, and therefore resurrected with Him?’
I questioned the validity of it when I wrote it. My point was that regeneration actually comes to us in the waters of baptism, and God Himself actually comes to us in the Eucharist. He doesn’t just ccome to a “covenant”, He comes all the way to us.
As you can tell from my posts on Perry’s blog I’m a bit miffed with the attitude of my fellow Orthodox towards non-Orthodox trinitarians. They have a lot to be thankful towards the RCC and prots. Lumping the LDS in with all prots and RC’s is ignorant.
April 18th, 2007 at 11:55 am
So let’s have it, in detail…..
What do we lack concerning “the law”? I know you’ve written it before, but I have to say that I’m not 100% on exactly what your beef is.
April 18th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
It’s not what you “lack” so much as a disagreement over starting points. Let me briefly list a few examples of how I think this works itself out:
Both eastern and western Catholics criticize the reformation for a “merely” judicial or legal approach to the gospel.
Perry will point to Calvin and Luther and accuse them of scholastic “Nominalism” (the idea that predicates are merely names or words with no “real” existence).
This is the supposed source of the reformed idea of “imputation” and the idea that we are “simply accounted righteous.” After all, there’s nothing “real” about a mere “declaration;” the annunciation of mere words.
We say “divine will and decree,” you say “energy” - ever wonder why? How much “decree” does it take to fill a bucket? What about “energy?”
We say the problem with humanity is guilt (a legal, merely NOMINAL category) while you say it’s a lack of “union with God.”
That is, you see the problem as ontological while we see it as moral/legal. Now, besides the fact that I personally, in my day to day life, do not think as a Greek, that is, in strictly ontological categories, my beef (so to speak) is that the “covenantal” context of Paul’s writings (his constant reference to our “guilt” and “the law”) makes me think I ought not even try since it’s the wrong direction.
That’s it in short. I was going to dig in a little deeper in my next post on the topic (which might be a couple weeks off).
Jim
April 21st, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Jim,
It might be helpful for you to contact Fr. Josiah Trenham. He comes from a staunchly Presbyterian background — Calvinist through and through — and he went to Westminster Seminary before converting to Orthodoxy. He’s extremely bright, very knowledgeable, and he’ll obviously be able to help you answer the kind of questions that you’re asking.
http://www.saintandrew.net/contact.html
April 22nd, 2007 at 11:10 pm
Andrew,
I doubt there’s a question Jim could ask Fr. Josiah Jim couldn’t answer himself; he’s way beyond that. Jim has questions he can only answer for himself.
I presuppose that Orthodoxy is for everyone; I’m biased, I admit it. The Orthodox have the same tendency everyone else has; if you ask the right questions you’ll end up just like them, whomever them happens to be. So the Orthodox answer guys like Jim in a way that leads him to Orthodoxy; all roads lead to Constantinople in their minds. It’s trite.
Well, hogwash. Jim, I say rip into us, rip into yourself, rip into whatever it takes if you’re in pursuit of truth. I think the way you’re dissecting everything is fine. You need to answer your own questions and not drink kool-aid. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good. Be aggressive.
I don’t know whether I’d be happy or sad if you became Orthodox. I’d be without a sparring partner; no opponent; no Lex Luthor. It’s a depressing thought.
April 22nd, 2007 at 11:50 pm
“It’s not what you “lack” so much as a disagreement over starting points. ”
True. We start most everything dealing with man with the Incarnation.
“Both eastern and western Catholics criticize the reformation for a “merely” judicial or legal approach to the gospel.”
Isn’t it true, though?
“Perry will point to Calvin and Luther and accuse them of scholastic “Nominalism” (the idea that predicates are merely names or words with no “real” existence).
This is the supposed source of the reformed idea of “imputation” and the idea that we are “simply accounted righteous.” After all, there’s nothing “real” about a mere “declaration;” the annunciation of mere words.”
Luther’s metaphor of a piece of dung covered with snow should illustrate my point. We see the dung as an insult to the nature of man, which is good and created in the image of God. The snow is a mere covering that doesn’t change the dung. We would say the snow melts and penetrates the warm dung lying on the ground. Crude metaphor, but blame Luther.
April 23rd, 2007 at 12:52 am
“We say “divine will and decree,” you say “energy” - ever wonder why? How much “decree” does it take to fill a bucket? What about “energy?””
Divine will and decree are distant, impersonal. Energies actually come to us and change us; close-up, personal.
“We say the problem with humanity is guilt (a legal, merely NOMINAL category) while you say it’s a lack of “union with God.””
Romans 5:12…. Adam sinned, bringing death. We recieved death from Adam, therefore we sin. Death pervades our entire being, not just physically, and separates us from God. The union with God, in all its forms, heals us from death. Salvation then is a process that occurs over the entirety of our lives, and not something we realize because of a decree. The e-mail I sent is from my priest’s blog; an ontological way of looking at original sin.
“That is, you see the problem as ontological while we see it as moral/legal. Now, besides the fact that I personally, in my day to day life, do not think as a Greek, that is, in strictly ontological categories, my beef (so to speak) is that the “covenantal” context of Paul’s writings (his constant reference to our “guilt” and “the law”) makes me think I ought not even try since it’s the wrong direction.”
I see the chasm you’re alluding to. I just read Romans, and to be honest, I can see multiple ways it can be recieved. Try this…. insofar as you can, try reading something like Romans 8 with ontological glasses on instead of judicial glasses, or any section of Romans.
All of us read the text with various glasses on. Once you see that you can change glasses at will and pick up either pair; well………
May 12th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Where is part 2 for me to feast on?
May 13th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Most of the post from my priest’s blog is posted below. I thought of you when I read it, NOT because of icons, but because of the OT reference as shadow. The phraseology isn’t unique to Orthodoxy as I believe Calvin made a similar reference to the sacraments being an “inbreaking” of the eschaton into the present order. The paragraph that struck me was:
“First, if the Old Testament is Shadow, then we must ask, “Which direction is the light coming from in order to cast such a shadow?” ”
While my priest was using it for icons, I can see it being used to further illumine anybody’s understanding of the OT. I think you’ll see what I mean.
Don
Icons are very peculiar things as art goes. Those who do not understand them often find their “flat,” and almost “stylized” presentation of human beings and events rather stitled or off-putting. The non-Orthodox, I believe, realize that there’s more to an icon than meets the eye, but are not sure where to begin or how to frame the question. Not all Orthodox know the correct answers.
We have many visitors to St. Anne from non-Orthodox people - some just curious - others as very hungry seekers. The icons make a striking, immediate impression. I have given any number of classes on the meaning and veneration of icons. There is one aspect, however, that I find the hardest to explain. It is the relationship between icons and the truth.
The great classical expression concerning the truth was made first by St. Ambrose of Milan and again later by St. Maximus the Confessor. Their handy description was to say: “the Old Testament is shadow; the New Testament is icon; the End of all things [eschaton in Greek] is the Truth. If you think much about this some things begin to become clear.
First, if the Old Testament is Shadow, then we must ask, “Which direction is the light coming from in order to cast such a shadow?” The obvious answer in the Ambrosian or Maximian scheme is to say, “From the Eschaton.” It is not the light of the past that casts such a shadow, but a light that has not yet finally come.
Thus the things in the Old Testament are shadow, revealing something of the image itself, if only the edges of its outline.
The New Testament becomes more clear. Here things become more distinct. We can see faces and objects in a relatively clear manner, and yet there is still something about those faces and objects that seem different than the faces and objects I encounter on a day to day basis. This is because the icon is pointing beyond itself and is itself an icon of the eschaton. The saints are painted in a manner that reflects the truth of who they are. The lightness of their bodies, reflected in the thinness of their hands; the deemphasis on their senses (thin nose, tiny ears, small mouth) are meant to emphasize inward senses. They know silence and what cannot be spoken. Their eyes are enlarged as they behold the Truth, their foreheads enlarged as they know greater wisdom.
These are Byzantine methods of revealing the gospel truth. Icons are not only “windows into heaven,” they are portals into a time that has not yet completely come. They are not that time, but icons of that time.
It is deeply reminiscent of the statement in 1 John 2:2: “Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.”
Not just the truth of the icon is waiting to be revealed - the truth of our very selves and the world in which we live is waiting to be revealed. Most commonly we have icons. The elements of the Holy Eucharist, Christ’s Body and Blood, are not icons of the age to come, they are the age to come made manifest among us. The Seventh Ecumenical Council rejected any language of iconography when referring to the Holy Body and Blood. Thus in this icon blessed world, elements of the coming age - the Truth of things - is constantly breaking through. What we do not yet see in Truth is still in some manner part of the delusion of our sinful heart. But then, “we will know even as we are known.” Then “we shall see face to face.”
May 13th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Hey. I’ve been swamped - not even enough time to keep up on reading through everything on Perry’s blog…
My next post was supposed to be a few flying pictures but I haven’t even had a chance to put that together yet.
July 10th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
HHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is anybody in there? Just scream if you can hear me!
July 11th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Quit yer whinnin’
I’ve been swamped with work and other things (a subdivision, kids in baseball, summer vacations and trips to family, a home software development project, working around the house).
You IMed me when I was away from my desk and were logged off when I got back (twice).
I read Perry’s brief post on Protestant views of scripture (the one you linked to) … “same ol’ same ol’”